Saiyans

Post your long winded ideas here instead of cluttering up the global boards.
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Braska
Posts: 4
Joined: 25 Jun 2010, 20:05
Location: Canada

Saiyans

Post by Braska » 25 Jun 2010, 20:42

Alright, everybody who ever sees me say anything about Saiyans almost always launches into the "omfg if yu d0nt lyke teh saiyan play teh other races" or some such stupidity as that. The fact of the matter is that I've been playing various versions of this mud for a very long time, and realistically speaking Saiyans have been the least improved race of all, and this DOES include Halfbreeds but only to a certain extent. Now, having said that, I took it upon myself to start looking for new ideas to improve Saiyans and by default Halfbreeds a little as well. I asked some players also and got some good input, but the Gboards are annoying and spammy and so I decided to bring the core of what I was thinking here.


Now then, first things first something that is overdue. Both Oozaru and Golden Oozaru forms provide no stat mods at all, only PL mods. According to the way I think the Oozaru forms function I've come up with a set of stat mods for each one:

Oozaru -> 10x PL mod, +15str, -15spd, -10int, +15con
Golden Oozaru -> 35x PL mod, +40str, -40spd, -20int, +40con


The next big thing I looked at were the Super Saiyan stat modifiers. I compared them to other racial mods and found them to be very very poor, however I didn't want to all of a sudden make them super hax and make a whine-fest as a result. Because of that I started thinking about it and I drew some inspiration from Goku and Gohan in the HBTC training they did. Upon leaving they were both able to maintain Super Saiyan with no effort whatsoever, as though they had "perfected" their Super Saiyan abilities. That said, I thought it would be interesting if all Saiyans and Halfbreeds alike could perfect their Super Saiyan forms as well. It wouldn't affect Ultra-Super Saiyan due to that forms naturally imperfect nature. There would be some sort of quest involved, one that wasn't supremely difficult but something that could take something in the region of 30-45 minutes to complete and be somewhat direct. There would also need to be a Powerlevel requirement associated with quest. Also, I naturally assumed that mastering the control of Super Saiyan would require a vast amount of energy to be expended, and thus the quest ending where you actually learn to perfect the forms would require somewhere in the range of maybe 300-400 thousand ki. These "perfect Super Saiyan" forms would replace all SSJ's from 1 to 4, and cost something like 3 to 5 times more energy to transform than the normal ones. The stat mods for each level would be as follows:

Perfect SSJ1 -> 12str, 9spd, 5int, 9con
Perfect SSJ2 -> 19str, 13spd, 6int, 13con
Perfect SSJ3 -> 28str, 18spd, 8int, 18con
Perfect SSJ4 -> 35str, 23spd, 10int, 23con


The last of my really big ideas is a death PL loss reduction skill. It's no secret that Saiyans have horrendous gains, and again I'm not complaining because I chose Saiyan knowing this, and death is a very detrimental thing to Saiyans. In the series we see Goku and Vegeta (mostly Vegeta) survive the worst beatings imagineable and pull through them through the sheer force of their will and pride. The skill would have 2 restrictions placed upon it so that again, people dont take off into a big whine fest. Firstly the skill would require that upon death the player has a certain % of their Ki left, something not unreasonable like say in the range of 50-75%. The second restriction would be a timer. Obviously pulling through an extreme near-death incident would require a tremendous amount of energy and put a great strain on the body, and isn't something you could run out and do 47 times a day. Maybe a time something like 12 hours or wtv. It would reduce the PL lost on death by 30-40%, whatever that happened to be in either case.

RossGaming
Posts: 11
Joined: 23 Jun 2010, 11:59

Re: Saiyans

Post by RossGaming » 29 Jun 2010, 12:58

Saiyans have a 30x pl modifier. Type help icer forms help nirvana...Most of the other races get +1 to one or two stats and +1/2 to two other stats per mod which is an average of x26 thats +26 to one stat and +13 in final forms to the rest. Does not make sense to give saiyans equal or better stat bonus with 5x the pl modifier >_>. Also I think saiyans can learn mystic, and I think mystic is incase you want A. variable mods or B. Stats bonus

There are a few over powered transformations like ultra perfect and Super android (SA is because its a bitch but does not justify it being that much better then all the rest, and Bio-androids stat bonus is just cheating :-p.)

One flaw in your ideas is they always revovle around making the saiyan class better and disregard any level of balance for the mud itself. You would love to increase the power gained when first learning ssj2...You would love to get better stats in j1-4 but I do not see you notating the fact that ussj should be a slower form then ssj1. Obviously speed was an issue with USSJ as no one was even able to hit cell while in ussj but they could atleast make contact in J1. Yet in this game both give a speed mod of +5...Shouldn't ussj be like -50 spd? And then ussj2 even worse then that :-p?

Braska
Posts: 4
Joined: 25 Jun 2010, 20:05
Location: Canada

Re: Saiyans

Post by Braska » 30 Jun 2010, 14:02

Ok here's a comparison of SSJ1 and SSJ3, with similar mods from some other races

Super Saiyan 1 -> 10str, 5spd, 3int, 5con -> total = 23
Extreme -> 18str, 12spd, 6int, 24con -> total = 60 **Almost 3x SSJ1**
Semi-Perfect -> 8str, 8spd, 8int, 8con -> total = 32
Evil Surge 10 -> 10str, 5spd, 5int, 10con -> total = 30
Mystic 10 -> 10str, 10spd, 10int, 10con -> total = 40
T3 Tech Chip -> 8str, 8spd, 8int, 8con -> total = 32

Super Saiyan 3 -> 24str, 12spd, 6int, 12con -> total = 54
Nirvana -> 12str, 20spd, 10int, 25con -> total = 67
Ultra-Perfect -> 27str, 27spd, 27int, 27con -> total = 108 **DOUBLE SSJ3**
E.Overload 24 -> 24str, 12spd, 12int, 24con -> total = 72
Mystic 24 -> 24str, 24spd, 24int, 24con -> total = 96
VM2 Chip -> 22str, 22spd, 22int, 22con -> total = 88


Now..it seems to me tha for a race which is supposed to be oh so powerful, Saiyan mods are sorely lacking. As for your mention of mystic, Saiyans only get to use mystic 20, and in a mud like this where PK is so rampant a 20x mod pretty much means death. And I think I was very very fair with the mods I decided on. They're not massively overpowered and in fact are still passed up by some other racial mods. Also, I didn't say just change Super Saiyan in general, I suggested that it be made moderately difficult to increase to that level of power.

You clearly like to try to poke holes in what I've said, so I'll poke some in yours. First of all the fact that I said the initial power of SSJ forms is off is purely logical, there's nothing that makes sense about SSJ2 EVER being weaker than SSJ1, and you can try to argue otherwise all you want but there's no logical way to say it should. Second, I've already clearly proven that SSJ stats are already not balanced with the rest of the mud, and the fact of the matter is that my new stats are balanced just well enough.

But yea, you make at least one decent point. USSJ1 and USSJ2 should have negative speed, seems to me when the forms were first created on the original Saga they BOTH reduced speed by quite a bit.

RossGaming
Posts: 11
Joined: 23 Jun 2010, 11:59

Re: Saiyans

Post by RossGaming » 30 Jun 2010, 14:24

I guess with the way stats are in this game you could pretty much count an extra x1 pl as like atleast 5 stat points...I told you there are a few really OP ones as far as stats go like Bio-androids and SA but there are a lot of races with a lot less pl mods and not that great stats to and it would not be fair to boost saiyans who should have less to complain about with a 30x pl mod =/ all I was getting at.

Braska
Posts: 4
Joined: 25 Jun 2010, 20:05
Location: Canada

Re: Saiyans

Post by Braska » 30 Jun 2010, 14:32

You can't possibly compare PL and Stat points...seriously? With the right stats you can easily destroy someone with a higher PL than you. And If you get right down to it the 30x pl mod is completely worthless for gaining, only good for PK and 1-hitting mobs if SSj3 isnt enough. And theres another thing, even Halfies can outperform Saiyan stats since they get to use a higher level of Mystic, and Halfie gains are HUGE compared to Saiyan. Fact is, it's easy to try to poke holes and say my idea is bad, but I don't see you comming up with anything better....

Delk
Posts: 5
Joined: 02 Jul 2010, 03:54
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Re: Saiyans

Post by Delk » 02 Jul 2010, 04:04

Dont draw Mystic into this, Because that skill is learnable by so many races, yet only at a high pl. You get SSJ in the millions, Most dont get Mystic till 100b? Also Humans first form is Awakened Power. It is super lame. Saiyans get Kaioken which is haxx at a low level. Unlike most other people they use the same transforms through the whole game. Saiyans are just built different at low levels.

Delk
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Joined: 02 Jul 2010, 03:54
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Re: Saiyans

Post by Delk » 02 Jul 2010, 04:06

You placed SSJ against several Transformations that are not even in the same PL mod range. Changing the way facts are presented does not make them more true.

Raykar
Posts: 11
Joined: 01 Jul 2010, 17:13

Re: Saiyans

Post by Raykar » 02 Jul 2010, 04:13

IMO, the single change that could be made to saiyans to make them a more played and more effective race would be an addition of a simple skill that would allow saiyans to realistically take advantage of their awesome Low Life Gains with any stat build.

Saiyan Rage
"Seething with rage you focus the ki within to critical levels past your body's limits."

This skill would do 80 direct damage to the saiyan that uses it or possibly taking them directly to 20lf no matter what their lf was at before usage. This would allow them to use LLG's at any time without resorting to honest john specials or suppressing and taking damage from mobs. Also saiyans could focus their stats into con without having to worry about the tick fully healing them and limiting their llg's to very small timeslots.

I think llg's take over at like 25 lf

Delk
Posts: 5
Joined: 02 Jul 2010, 03:54
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Re: Saiyans

Post by Delk » 02 Jul 2010, 04:18

Ya see Raykars idea is WAY BETTER then changing the mods they have, let them abuse LLG. Yet I do not think 20. I think it should be like 40, so it knocks them down closer yet dosnt shoot them right in the good money. That or make it a rank skill so the stupid little bastards kill eachother over it for haxx gains.

Braska
Posts: 4
Joined: 25 Jun 2010, 20:05
Location: Canada

Re: Saiyans

Post by Braska » 02 Jul 2010, 10:35

Dont draw Mystic into this, Because that skill is learnable by so many races, yet only at a high pl. You get SSJ in the millions, Most dont get Mystic till 100b?
First things first, I can draw Mystic into it all I want, Kaio's have it as a variable mod without having to be taught AND at a way lower powerlevel than any other race since it's THEIR skill. The fact that other races can learn it has little to do with it's function. Also, you people seem to have completely missed the key point about this Super Saiyan upgrade not being something you just HAVE ->
There would be some sort of quest involved, one that wasn't supremely difficult but something that could take something in the region of 30-45 minutes to complete and be somewhat direct. There would also need to be a Powerlevel requirement associated with quest. Also, I naturally assumed that mastering the control of Super Saiyan would require a vast amount of energy to be expended, and thus the quest ending where you actually learn to perfect the forms would require somewhere in the range of maybe 300-400 thousand ki.
Frankly that idea makes it harder to get than Mystic, since Mystic you just have to ask someone to teach you. Also the PL requirement would have to be considereable also, I figured probably somewhere around 100-250b. And getting upwards of 300k ki takes awhile with focus, so that puts another restriction on it.


You placed SSJ against several Transformations that are not even in the same PL mod range. Changing the way facts are presented does not make them more true.

Uh..no I didn't? The PL mods I compared to are the closest thing to a 10x pl mod for EACH of those races. I didn't change a damn thing, I just read the helpfiles...maybe you should try it before you tell me I'm making things up...

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