Mini-Patch to Certain RP Traits: Here's what we're doing.

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Kalmega
Posts: 556
Joined: 23 Jan 2009, 21:06

Mini-Patch to Certain RP Traits: Here's what we're doing.

Post by Kalmega » 17 Feb 2011, 12:57

Last night the Immortal Staff had a closed door meeting about some aspects of RP and how they were generally affecting everything. Multiple items were decided on by open vote. I'm going to post here the items where a vote brought about change, and then present the reasons for doing so. Votes were open to us, but I'm not going to post who voted on what; just know that it was a joint venture. This is the format of presentation:

Skill: This will explain the current incarnation of the skill. Pretty straight forward.
The Change: This will outline the new functionality, if there is indeed one already chosen.
Why: This is the important one. Here I will explain why the change needed to be made from both an RP standpoint as well as an administrative stand point.

**NOTE**
These changes are by no means final, but the fact that these skills are being looked at is. Give good, well thought out, constructive feedback and you may be able to influence change. Keep it civil, people.


Natural Talent:
This skill has been sort of a thorn in our side for a while. Originally, the skill was linked to an ability of your choice and it granted the skill a +1 to tier value, also effectively letting it break tier limitations for a said character. For example, a Tier 2 player could have a Tier 3 blast. After the recent patch notes, NT could also be linked to a "stat," such as strength or speed, and enhance it to a level where the character would have an edge in that are over another character of the same tier, but still be inferior to someone of a higher tier, though less so than normal. With all that being said, NT is going to change.

The Change: Natural Talent is changing in entirety. The new Natural Talent will only be able to be linked with a skill, but now that skill becomes free. Any reds linked to that skill will be immediately refunded and it will now scale with you. When you skill up, so does the skill.

Why: There are two facets to this change, and I think anyone can agree that these are fair. From an administrative standpoint, NT was becoming problematic. Firstly, there was a stacking issue. Since NT could be stacked with a charge as well as a transformation buff, skills were capable of being three tiers beyond what someone could normally do. This presented multiple problems from a balance standpoint. I am by no means wanting to single anyone out, but I'm going to use Raburn since he is the only real case of this potentially happening.

Raburn linked NT to his blast attack, effectively making it T5 capable. He also linked his transformation to his blast attack, relinquishing the strength buff, since he felt it was his core mechanic. Raburn is a blaster. If he chose to charge the attack, he could effectively throw a T7 attack which, before a slight patch slid in by me, would be an effective world destroyed.

Now, even though I changed how attacks that functioned beyond a player's Tier worked, there is still a PvP issue within RP. When abilities stack like that, they get a certain power. If Raburn fought someone of equal Tier as himself, he could still throw an attack that would basically equate into a "Dodge or Die" scenario. I'm not saying he would, but this is how we have to look at things. These scenarios do happen, mainly because of the wide array of Tiered played we have in the RPverse, but they shouldn't happen with people of equal Tier. With the new NT functionality, stacking becomes less of an issue and we don't have to rehash transformations. It was the easiest fix to a bigger problem.

Now, NT also presented a balance problem when it was linked to stats. In RP, we don't really have values linked to strength, speed, or energy projection. There is a certain rule flexibility within all of them, but nothing is hard coded. Allowing NT to be slapped onto a stat have it a Tier #.# feel. It was a fraction higher than an imaginary number. Because we have no standard for Tier measurement as far as stats go, people could translate this NT boost however they wanted. It basically wreaked havoc on balance. I realize that this will be a hit to certain people who like to boast a certain trait, but sometimes we just have to make a change for the sake of a whole. You are still encouraged to RP in a certain manner, ie: a beamer, a brute, or a speedster. Given the maturity of our RP community, it shouldn't be out of reach.

An added perk to all of this will be what comes out of it. Essentially NT is now valued at (10 red x Tier) for a player. This will allow players to have deeper talent pools and more variations within said character, which is a good thing. At lower levels, characters tend to be flat because of scaling tier costs for abilities and what not. This should alleviate that issue somewhat.

******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************


Next Up:
Transformations:
Transformations need to be better defined. We have an array of them out there, and though we have an idea of what they do, we need a reference on paper. Players need to get with an RP Admin, preferably whoever discussed your transformation with you initially, and figure out what EXACTLY it does. Take that explanation and put it up on the wiki.

Why:
This is just mainly for reference and clarity. In order to ensure consistency from players and no Meta gaming and what not. No real big change here.

Next Up:
Reds:
A while back we posted a list of what reds were rewarded for. Essentially, reds show your character's development as a warrior. Though these may be awarded differently depending on the character, they are essentially a hard, numerical value for a character's competency in the realm of combat (or in some few cases mere expertise). Reds differed in value based on RPs, number of RPs, Solos, and who you RPed with. Again, pretty straight forward.

The Change:
There has been concern about "grinding" reds. DBZ is a combat intensive backdrop, but we are also trying to encourage story telling. We want this universe to evolve as you do. That being said, sometimes players only focus on the combat aspect, which we want to discourage. There is no blanket fix for this, so all you'll notice is a shift in reds awarded sometimes. It may be for only doing combat logs, or maybe doing them back to back.

Why:
As I touched on before, sometimes people appear to be "grinding." I would not be so bold as to openly accuse someone of doing this, but the behavior can be seen whether it is intentional or not. We want the tiers to remain something of an achievement. Dedication to your character(s) and a commitment to flushing out this RPverse come with their rewards. Yes, combat can do just as much as simple story telling can, but we don't want someone popping up as a T7 simply because they have more time on their hands as others. I will admit, the availability of time is a HUGE factor to those who have climbed the rungs of the RPverse, we just don't want it to be the only factor.

Secondly, sometimes these combat logs come back to back or are a huge lump. We want some realism within our RPverse and maxing yourself out four or five times a week just isn't it. We do have some characters that possess the ability to self heal, and thus can fight more often, but we still don't want that ability to translate into constantly being able to fight; even fast healing can have a drawback. I will say that leniency may be given in these cases, but you can still expect your reds rewarded for constant combat logs to diminish.

******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************


Next Up:
Weapons:
Weapons have found a new niche in this RPverse that didn't exist before. More and more characters are picking up abilities to imbue weapons or even create them.

The Change:
There really is none. It was a topic of conversation that just needed to be presented to the RP Community.

Why:
Weapons appearing IRP isn't a bad thing, but we don't want a paradigm shift in theme. One of our Imm Staff referenced a worry that "Bleach" was taking over. I disagree with this sentiment, but I understand the concern. Weapons can bring a variance to a character that is fresh when compared to the rest of the RPverse, and that's a good thing. One concern is that weapons translate into raw advantage, since a cutting tool is almost always favored over a fist; another good concern. We want your characters to have flavor, but we don't want to see an arms race of weapons. In the future, we won't detour weapons by any means, but we do encourage trying to search other methods of making your character unique. We want to stick to theme while at the same point allowing you to have control over your character's direction.


That's it for now. We were up late discussing so I might have missed some stuff. If I have, I'll add it in an :edit: section and point you all to it via Gnote.


~Saeji

Ceal
Posts: 123
Joined: 24 Jan 2009, 17:46

Re: Mini-Patch to Certain RP Traits: Here's what we're doing.

Post by Ceal » 17 Feb 2011, 13:55

I agree with most of that, but I have a little recommendation to add in that I would personally love to be considered.

I think that being able to even purchase a regenerative skill at tier 1, starting off, should be locked until later tiers (say tier 3, maybe 4 as I was just having this little argument with Abraka).

My reason for suggesting this is because, at an early tier, regeneration allows for the whole back-to-back-to-back RP fights that Saeji was just talking about in his earlier post, and it also allows for someone to come back with, say, a huge chunk of their side missing in the next RP they have with you. It's like severe damage to their bodies never even happened. For a lower tier to be able to do this, it makes their lifespan and overall existence more durable than it really should be. I'm honestly wording this terribly, but I'm just trying to get my point across that regeneration is crazy right now from what I've noticed. In a whole, all Namekians are not Piccolo. All Magic-Demons are not Majin Buus.

...Like I said, I worded this terribly, but if it's read and interpreted the way I see it, then my mission is accomplished I suppose.

*Awaits the shit storm against him*

BenRGamer
Posts: 313
Joined: 23 Jan 2009, 12:52

Re: Mini-Patch to Certain RP Traits: Here's what we're doing.

Post by BenRGamer » 17 Feb 2011, 15:25

Eh, actually, the lower tiers of Regeneration aren't that powerful. Mostly just covering minor/superficial wounds.

MDs can't magically heal major injuries until Tier 2 (even then it would take multiple posts), they can't regrow limbs until Tier 3 (and even then not in the same RP until Tier 4, which would even then take a period of time, about 5 minutes according to the helpfile, which should be about a couple of posts).

Namekians can heal better than MDs, but it tires 'em out in the first 2-3 tiers. They can't heal limbs until Tier 2, and even then they have to focus for a bit and can't fight for awhile after. Tier 3 they can still fight, but it's supposed to weaken them. Tier 4 they just stop and focus for a post and they're fine again, little energy loss. Tier 3 and 4 is when it gets powerful.

Ghetti regeneration... never gets really powerful. They can just heal bones fast, soft tissue not so much. Even at Tier 4 it takes half a week for them to regrow a limb.

There... isn't a guide for BA Regen, oddly enough.

There may be people fudging the numbers on that in an attempt to game the system, but it's alright as it stands imo, it's the RP imms jobs to smack people that do that, they'd just find something else to game if this was change.

Lye
Posts: 1619
Joined: 23 Jan 2009, 02:24

Re: Mini-Patch to Certain RP Traits: Here's what we're doing.

Post by Lye » 17 Feb 2011, 16:26

Just finished reading this, even though it'll have a major effect on Lye I think the NT change is needed. As you said, right now it could make a character insanely powerful for their Tier, like poke a hole through planet powerful. Hell, Saboath had NT in his force-push and could charge it to t8 which would've easily knocked a planet out of the natural orbit. Like.. Violently out of its natural orbit. I wouldn't of, but he could of. I kind of agree with Ceal on the Regen thing, kind of. Lye/Eyl as they are can heal 'almost' anything save for severed limbs and massive holes through their chest. I know people have been against the idea, but what the system needs to regulate such things is an actual numerical value for energy. The way I RP Regeneration is that yeah... They can restore their flesh even if its seared down to the bone, but at a 'major' drain to his energy that carries over. If a character has a fixed numerical value for their total energy (I still say base it totally off of green RPP) then you can assign energy values for Tier abilities. Have it based off of green and have Tier 1 skills cost a base 5 energy for attack skills/defense skills. 10 Energy for Movement skills (while removing the limit since it'll actually have a significant drain on energy) and regeneration-type Tier'ed skills have a variable cost (5 energy per limb/extremity healed +10 for the torso.) That would mean to totally heal you'd need 5x4 (20 Greens) On top of another 10 greens for the torso to bring the total to 30 Greens. Then you implement a system for energy regeneration based on Tier. Then charging an attack multiplies the amount of energy spent to (base cost + 2x base cost) So a T1 skill charged (5 green +10 = 15 green) Tier 1's regenerate ten energy per RL day, Tier 2's regenerate 20 energy per RL day, ecetera... That would mean after Lye or Eyl fully healed themselves at tier 1, it would take three RL days to reacquire the energy. Now I know this would require players to keep track of how much energy they're using, but really... This system needs a hard method of calculating energy use. As abilities go up in Tier they go up in effectiveness and then costs 2x/3x/4x/5x/6x the base cost depending on tier.

Of course I know how most of you will respond, OMG WE DON'T NEED NOEZ ENERGY SYSTEM! Well, i'd disagree with you, this is just an idea I came up with while feeding my kid. Agree or disagree, the system would benefit. And yes, I realize this will give those Rp'ers who don't RP like me (that is combat as often as possible...) to have an energy advantage. Really, I don't mind that. Ideas, comments, complaints?

Nygmus
Posts: 706
Joined: 24 Jan 2009, 01:18

Re: Mini-Patch to Certain RP Traits: Here's what we're doing.

Post by Nygmus » 17 Feb 2011, 19:15

Natural Talent:

I'm not all that comfortable with the idea of it being totally free progression of a skill; it kind of feels like dumping 20-40 extra points into a character's skillset is a fairly big deal.

Part of this has to do with the fact that, simply, this specific change is one that I would never have done while I was the Head. Why? It's a decent change; when I was looking at my min/maxing thread, I was thinking of a similar change (except with NT skills costing 5/tier instead of 10/tier).

The biggest reason I wouldn't have done it, just to get it out of the way, is because this change stands to benefit a couple of people more than others. The way Lye's skillsets historically get built would make this a fairly big advantage for him; Dum's skillset would also derive an enormous boost from this change. That's part of the reason-whatever you guys have to say about me, I did try to ensure that I didn't do anything that overly benefited me.

Really me being uncomfortable with it comes chiefly from the depth of the change. 10 red is already a fairly big bonus, even for the characters that don't have their NT at above their natural tier. When you make a change of this magnitude, you absolutely have to evaluate, at the very least, the amount of the change-in this case, you're giving, in essence, 10-30 free red RPP to every major combat character in the game.


On the other hand, really, it's not that bad an idea. Too much? Maybe. Maybe not. Kick reason to the curb and surpass the impossible!

Reih
Posts: 33
Joined: 24 Apr 2011, 01:06

Re: Mini-Patch to Certain RP Traits: Here's what we're doing.

Post by Reih » 10 May 2011, 14:45

I agree with Nygmus on this one, and for this reason:

Character has NT in skill (A), and enough reds to purchase skill (B). For lack of arguement, skill (A) is a blast, skill (B) is a shield. Character has Tier 2 Shield, and with NT Tier 2 blast. Whereas in the previous system, they would have to put effort into selecting talents, and focus on a particular skill (A), while (B) remains a true secondary - in that it's not as powerful as skill (A). Instead the character now has damage mitigation on-tier with their current tier, as well as a blast of the same tier, and both skills are now effectively as strong as skill (A) with no extra effort required in practicing the use of that talent.

While this is a completely hypothetical situation, its not entirely impossible or implausible.

Also, I realize this is 3 months after the fact. My2cents.

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